Update 8/8 Facebook removed Page :
https://fggam.org/facebook-removes-mary-should-have-aborted-jesus-page/
MILWAUKEE, Wis., /Christian News Service/ — Note from Pastor Dewey: Oh My! Don’t ask what they will do next! Let us pray over this! A group of concerned Christians are calling on Facebook to remove a page that promotes the notion that the Virgin Mary of the Bible should have received an abortion. Titled “Virgin Mary Should’ve Aborted,” the administrator of the page claims to “explain what really happened in the biblical times, since the bible is full of lies.”
With just over 3,000 ‘Likes,’ Celene Schartner of Australia says the page not only demeans what Christians believe, but it is slanderous and hateful. It diminishes the right to life of every unborn infant in its mother’s womb by its very title and statement.
“Many Christians worldwide are so distressed at the attempts to diminish Christian values and the slanderous attacks on the Bible,” said Schartner. “If people don’t believe that’s their choice, but they need to learn respect for the choices of others.”
Mrs. Schartner encourages others to join the protest bysigning a petition that encourages the popular social media site to ban the page. As of the time of this release, more than 15,000 concerned Christians have signed the petition.
“I would never demean another Christian’s faith, or presume I have the right to do so, regardless of what they believe.”
As U.S. Spokesman for “Catholics & Protestants Against Facebook Religious discrimination”, Cary Bogue denounced the page as “beyond offensive”.
“No Christian, anywhere can consider this just ‘free speech.’ This has deliberately been set-up to offend and attack.”
Bogue maintains the page clearly is in violation of Facebook’s own policy, which states, “While we encourage you to challenge ideas, institutions, events, and practices, we do not permit individuals or groups to attack others based on their religion.”
Bogue believes Facebook has created an automated response to complaints about the page claiming it does not consider it an attack on a religion.
“That is just absurd. All we are asking is Facebook adhere to it’s own guidelines,” said Bogue.
The group has created its own Facebook page requesting “Virgin Mary Should’ve Aborted,” be removed.
Click here to join Catholics & Protestants Against Facebook Religious Discrimination.
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“Catholics & Protestants Against Facebook Religious Discrimination.” Well, does that mean you are discriminating against people of other beliefs. Both C&C denominations have been discriminating and, more often, killing people of other faiths for 2000 years. The fact that you get upset over, what you describe as blasphemy, means that you do not understand what free or hats speech is. We don’t hate you, we just cannot tolerate the fact that for 2000 years you have been killing and indoctrinating billions.
Really? I have never committed a murder. Don’t judge a sect or group of people because of what has happened in distant History. My Saviour condemns murder. If someone is murdering in the name of God, then they are in fact, blaspheming against Him and are in fact using God for their own evil plans. Just as some Muslim extreme groups have murdered in the name of Allah, that does not mean all Muslims are murderers.
So all of the people that god ordered killed, in his name are condemned by Christ?
No not everyone is a murderer for their belief, yes there are plenty of people that still do so, even christians. The fact is that the Bible itself orders the death of people for even ‘minor’ crimes.Using the Bible as a source of morality is not exactly a good idea.
Christ is God, and I said “If someone is murdering in the name of God” then he is blaspheming – God is not a someone – He is God. Before Christ came, yes, God had his people kill many pagans, people who rejected God and blasphemed against Him. After Christ came, this changed because now Christ died for their sins, my sins, your sins, everyone’s sins. Don’t you see? This is why God had Jesus come in the first place, because He knew that the old covenant wasn’t His perfect plan for the human race – He wills that we all be saved, hence the sacrifice he made, allowing His son to be stripped of divinity and nailed to a tree. When you create your own universe, you can make the rules however you see fit.
Only in some states is it considered double homicide, usually only in the 3rd trimester. Yes, Jesus said that, but that isn’t exactly condemning abortion is it? He condemned a fig tree, are we to condemn all fig trees? He also said, if your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out. I suppose taking that part literally would lead to a lot of people going to church via guide dog.
“Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfil. For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled.” (Matthew 5:17-18) So according to this, you are still obligated to follow all of god’s laws. The Levitical laws are part of god’s word and god’s word does not change. The same yesterday today and forever.
This is exactly what I am saying, “Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfil. For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled.” (Matthew 5:17-18) He came to “Fulfil the law” and He did, on Calvary’s Cross by spilling his blood – in this way we don’t spill the blood of animals like the levites were required to do for the remission of sin, instead, we are covered by Jesus’ blood (Luke 22:20). We don’t live as the levites did because the old covenant (bound through circumcision) is no longer the law we live under, we live under the new covenant which is established by Jesus’ blood and initiated through baptism. Jesus commanded baptism in the Great Commission: “Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit” (Matthew 28:19). Baptism is the outward sign of an inward change. It represents rebirth in Christ. So to summarize, no we don’t have to live under the old laws of the levites – that wouldn’t be freedom.
As for abortion, who decides what trimester denotes human life? That sounds like someone is playing God. The fact is, recent science has proven that unborn children feel pain, it has proven, that they have a very early heartbeat, and it has also proven that they have brainwaves. This article states that the research shows there is a possibility of brain wave activity as early as 2 months – this is speculation backed by science, but who wants to take the risk of ending potential brain wave paterns ? Causing a heart to stop beating ? Making an unborn child feel pain…
“When you create your own universe, you can make the rules however you see fit.” What a lovely thought. So I create a universe and demand that these creatures I created love, worship and adore me or I will torture them for all of eternity. At least Hitler and Stalin could no longer torment people after their death.
So god created a world, he knew man would not be prefect, and yet he punishes that man he created for not being perfect. That sounds like a 6 year old child who builds a model plane and because it doesn’t fly like he expected it to he destroys his own creation in a fit of rage. How can you, anyone, possibly see where there is any “love” in that?
Actually, He loved us enough to create us! Wouldn’t it suck if you didn’t exist at all? And this is a classic question, “why does He allow all the suffering.” Well the answer is quite simple: He loves us so much that he gave us complete free will, and instead of hitting the delete key on humanity when we got really jacked up, He sent His son to die for us. So Yes, He runs the universe, makes the spiritual laws (like adultery is sin – and we see why His laws are good, because adultery hurts everyone). So when we don’t follow His spiritual laws, we suffer spiritually and oftentimes physically. He does hear our prayers though and does have a perfect plan for all of us, all we have to do is follow. Sorry if this was a bit scatter-brained, haven’t had my two cups of joe yet…
There is nowhere that Jesus ‘nullifies’ the law. “…until all is fulfilled…” According to the Bible, the world and the word has not come to an end yet. There is no removal of Levitical law, that was never written about and it was never rescinded by Jesus. “…”till heaven and earth pass away…” we are still here, the law is still in effect. You can’t take the second half of the sentence without the first part of it. The earth is still here, the law is still in effect, all is not yet fulfilled. The interpretation that christians don’t have to follow the OT because of Jesus’ actions are not correct. “It is easier for Heaven and Earth to pass away than for the smallest part of the letter of the law to become invalid.” (Luke 16:17) – Yes Romans 14 seems to contradict this, but if you understand it, not really, it is still recommending that you follow the rules as to what is clean and unclean.
As for the article on babies, there is limited knowledge on both sides. I never said I am pro abortion, I am not, but there are times when it is medically necessary. I know there are some really weak reasons for it at times, and I don’t agree that something like the possibility of haemorrhoids counts as a medical necessity. I am against “partial birth” abortions, these are barbaric. I do support it in the cases of rape, incest and a child with congenital or genetic birth defects.
To establish my other verses demonstrating that the law has been fulfilled/abolished, Galatians 3:23-25: “23 Before the coming of this faith,[a] we were held in custody under the law, locked up until the faith that was to come would be revealed. 24 So the law was our guardian until Christ came that we might be justified by faith. 25 Now that this faith has come, we are no longer under a guardian.”
Here is the mix of things “banned” under mosaic law (but not all of it is just ceremonial):
“Shaving – Leviticus 19:27, Cursing – Ephesians 5:4, Gossip – Leviticus 19:16, Football on Saturdays – Exodus 20:8, Eating Lobster – Leviticus 11:10, Eating Pork – Leviticus 11:7, Cotton Polyester Blends – Leviticus 19:19, Associating with women who are on their period – Leviticus 15-19″ BUT this is a mixture of moral and ceremonial Hebrew laws. The moral Law (“You shall not murder,” steal, lie, commit adultery, etc.,) is binding on the whole of humanity. This is summarized in the Ten Commandments and encompasses gossip, cursing, lust and hatred. Its precepts are written on our hearts via the conscience, and each of us will be judged by it on Judgment Day (Romans 2:12, James 2:12). That’s why all of us need a Savior, because we all sin and fall short (Romans 3:23).
Also about bacon, Acts 10:9-16 shows us quite literally that Christ made the old ceremonial “unclean foods” clean since the old levitical law is fulfilled. Anyways, now I want to go eat bacon.
Would it suck if I didn’t exist? I don’t know, because I wouldn’t exist. It still sounds like god was not aware of the consequences of his action. However, if you have a child and you tell that child not to do something, you don’t damn him to hell because he does it. You might slap him around a little, but to punish him, and his descendants for all time? That is more than a little harsh.
Yes people claim that there are moral and ceremonial laws. But that is rather a flimsy excuse. People that believe might not HAVE to obey each and every law, but they SHOULD and saying it is OK not to is encouraging people to pick and choose what they think is right for them.
You mention Acts 10 The famous “Flying Bedsheet of God” – Sounds more like there was something a little mysterious in the wine that Peter drank the night before. That is surely less believable than the burning bush.
When I re-examined my faith it was such things as these that led me to the realisation that the majority of the Bible was made up, the laws were beyond impossible to follow and that the whole of my christian experience, being saved, baptism and even baptism of the holy spirit was a complete delusional fabrication in my own mind. Very often christians say they find freedom with Christ. I thought I did. But I never felt the freedom or love for other people that I do now without him.
God doesn’t damn us to hell. He made hell for the devil and his angels (Matthew 25:41) not for mankind. Now if we chose to reject the free gift of salvation and walk the path of hell the same way Satan is, then we are fundamentally walking ourselves right into hell. God wants every man to choose life (1 Timothy 2:4).
In Eph. 2:14-15, Paul is speaking about how the gentiles who were called the uncircumcision (v. 11), were separated from Christ (v. 12), but have now been brought near (to God) by the blood of Christ (v. 13). Jesus removed the requirement of having to follow the Law in order to please God, established justification by faith, and thereby united both Jew and Gentile into one group in Christ. This is when Paul says in verse 15 that he abolished in his flesh the enmity which is the law of commandments in ordinances. The Law was that which separated Jew from Gentile and since it has been fulfilled in Christ, it is no longer something that would separate Jew and Gentile.
As for Acts 10, are you now picking and choosing what verses in the Bible you believe are legitimate? The Bible is not a buffet in which one can chose what he wants, it is complete and perfect and we should regard it as so. The oldest manuscripts of the Bible have been compared from different parts of the world and in essence, ‘not one jot or tittle’ has been changed. (Matthew 5:18)
I am sorry that you believe your experience was a fabrication. It sounds to me like you need to see a miracle – an act of God in order to believe again. Have you asked Him to reveal himself to you in a real way? Sometimes we do not see because we do not wish to see (I don’t mean to be cliche). I will pray for you that you may once again see.
My walk with God has completed me. I was lost and void before I came to Him, I didn’t know my purpose, and I didn’t know why I was here. I was in bondage bad, I hated what life was – empty and full of horribleness. God then gave me purpose and showed me the reason I am here and made my spirit free. Most of my Family either rejects or is distant from me, and I found a family in the Body of Christ. My church family at Passion Church is a better family than I have ever had. They support me, encourage me, befriended me, and are always there for me. It is at Passion that I have witnessed many miracles (crippled man walking, prophetic intuition into someones life [yes details only God knows], and other acts of God). I would love to meet you Jeremy. Shoot me an email (click my gravatar image) if you want to have a cup of coffee sometime or visit Passion Church.
God bless you.
There are so many discrepancies in the Bible it would take forever to go through them all. My main contention is that there are parts of it that just are impossible. Noah, Jonah and the whole process of creation, not just logically but scientifically impossible.
Coming from a family that believed the Bible (on my mother’s side) literally I got a fairly good dose of it growing up, so I did a lot of research and was very involved in church for many years. Let us suppose that you are correct, that the Levitical laws of ceremony are no longer valid but that the moral laws are. Does that mean that the punishments for such laws are still valid? Can you stone your wife for adultery? Your son for drunkenness? Barbaric punishments even back then.
You mention miracles and healings, I too have been witness to these, other than the fact that they were neither miracles nor healings. I have never seen a blind person regain his sight, a paraplegic walk, or a person’s limb regrow. The miracles that you refer to are simply things that happen every day in every religion in every part of the world. Even to those that don’t believe in a deity. Spontaneous remission and “faith” enabling you to do something that you were not able to do before is nothing new. But there are no quantifiable miracles that do not happen everyday.
Did I ask god to reveal himself? Of course I did. Even as a child. I remember when I was four asking god to write something on a piece of paper so that I would know he was real. Of course nothing happened, but that might have been my first clue that there was nothing there. I prayed fervently at the turning point in my life and came to the conclusion that the only person I could really rely on was myself. There was no point in continuing in believing something that made no sense and kept me in bondage emotionally.
I do empathise with you somewhat, many of my ‘christian’ family members no longer want to have anything to do with me. However I am rather vocal and occasionally somewhat blunt in my atheism, so I can understand how they are offended. But I would never shun them.
As for praying for me, I’d rather you pray for something worthwhile. World peace or an end to hunger? When something that simple is accomplished by prayer then you can pray for the more difficult things, like my re re conversion. :) I would love to meet you for coffee, so if you are ever in Poland, drop by. As for the church, well you know the parable about the snowball and a warm, toasty place.
It has been interesting to discuss this with you. I can see that neither of us are going to change our minds. But like you, if any of my words influence someone to investigate and question their beliefs. Mission accomplished.
The origin of this thread was about the website. While it is ‘offensive’ I still don’t think it should be censored. Next the thought police will arrive and then, like in many sects of many faiths, the interpretation of the Bible or other holy book will be left up to a few individuals and our freedoms will be swept aside.
Well a big boom definitely isn’t logical either. Where did the matter first come from? Matter just existed ? Why? How? It doesn’t add up. When you see a structure, you automatically assume there is an architect. Why? Because it required intelligent design to create it. The Second law of thermodynamics states that “everything tends towards entropy” when it comes to physics. I mean if we set a bomb off in the sand, it would never create a sand castle when the sand falls. It just doesn’t line up with science.
As for punishment, no, we do not go by the old levitical scales and justice system. Again, see John 8:7 (you who are without sin throw the first stone). Jesus stopped the people from carrying out the old levitical law of stoning someone caught in the act of immorality.
I understand about not seeing miracles you have requested. The bible says that the teachers of the law also asked for a miracle but Jesus did not give them one (Matthew 12:38-42). On this subject, all I can say is “just wait”, God has a way of proving that we need Him and His divine intervention.
Shunning is bad :( I have dealt with some serious family shunning so i know how hard that can be. Its never healthy for anyone.
Prayer, hmmm. I do pray for world peace, and the Bible promises it too when Christ returns. I pray for my country, and I pray for those less fortunate than me. Trust me, I am no stranger to prayer, I believe when Paul said “pray without ceasing” that he meant it.
I concur, very interesting conversation. Thanks for your intelligent and civil opinions, I wish all debates and topics could go this smoothly.
I do agree with you on censorship being a very dangerous game. I don’t like it. I have mixed feelings on the subject as I am sure most people do. I suppose I just wish people would understand that “with freedom (of speech) comes responsibility” but today we don’t see any responsibility on the internet. What can be done ? Not much I am afraid since the core of the internet is comprised of trolls and obscenity.
Christians are hypocrites who only care about their own agenda.
Christians have persecuted non believers for centuries, now they know how it feels .
Many Christians are hypocrites, and many Muslims, Buddhists, Hindus, etc… are also hypocrites. The fact is, there will always be someone who is doing something that does not line up with His/Her religion. People who call themselves Christians and then show hatred towards the unsaved are, in fact, not of the Christian faith. Christ showed love, acceptance, and redemption. So, my point in all this —- don’t throw the baby out with the bathwater.
Mat 22:36 “Teacher, which [is] the great commandment in the law?” 37 Jesus said to him, “‘You shall love the LORD your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.’38 “This is [the] first and great commandment. 39 “And [the] second [is] like it: ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ 40 “On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets.”
I post these Scriptures to give an example of what Christ wanted us to be like. Many of us cast stones, those in and out of the church. But I believe if one would read the word with an open mind without condemnation they might see the message Jesus of Nazareth was truly trying to convey. Christ is not forcing any of us to follow him. But to compare today’s Christian or follower of Christ to those of the past is like convicting us of the prejudice and racial behavior of our ancestors.My point is that many of us in the church today have learned from the mistakes of the past and hope that people would not ask us to continue to pay for the sins of our forefathers. Which all in all is what it is about. FORGIVENESS!!!!
You speak of indoctrination, I would ask you to look at the far left liberal agenda and really assess if they do not have an agenda as you call it, They spend millions of dollars on lobbyists to promote Gay rights, Abortion, and even to have these things promoted in the public school system which my tax dollars pay for. we speak of rights how is this different then what right wing conservatives do. in trying to save the lives of unborn children. Which I believe IS MURDER
The Bible is silent on abortion. There is no mention of it. However it does say that homosexuality is wrong. So you object to people being gay and you object to the promotion of homosexuality (which really doesn’t happen by the way, they aren’t trying to ‘recruit’ new members.) So, I hope that you are as equally fervent about all of the other Levitical laws. You know there are people that spend billions of dollars each year eating lobster, shrimp and even pigs. Urgh, can you imagine eating piece of bacon. God really hates that. He also hates people who go to fortune tellers, read their horoscope and things like that. These people are witches and they should be stoned, or at least kept silent. Then there are the worst offenders. Probably 99% of people mix clothes of different material. Can you imagine wearing Silk AND Cotton? Oh the horror!!! If Jesus came back today, he’d be really upset if he were to walk into church and see a silk tie with a cotton shirt. I hope you are as fervent in your opposition to these sins as you are to the homosexuals in the world.
Good questions and comments. Here is the scoop. We don’t practice levitical law because we are not bound by the old covenant – Jesus abolished it – Jesus fulfilled it (Ephesians 2:14-16). But the New Testament does indeed condemn a homosexual lifestyle. Its in the same boat as all the other sexual sins (adultery, fornication, etc…) see 1 Corinthians 6:9-10.
Now as for abortion, this is more just a logical argument. We know they are babies after conception (Luke 1:41,44 Elizabeth conceived (v. 24), and the life “in her womb” is called a “babe” or “baby” and Jeremiah 1:5 “Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, before you were born I set you apart…”). So therefore, if we take the life of an unborn child, it is murder. Just like if you kill a pregnant woman, often times its considered double-homicide by the authorities.
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